Board
I found an interesting article on Tygem about a recent rules dispute. Black is Kim Yun-Yeong 1P, and white is An Kwan-Uk 8P. The given result is W+0.5. This is the position in question:
I was using Google Translate, so I can't be sure, but the article seems to say that both players missed the atari here. If this is true, it is certainly remarkable, and I don't know enough about the Korean rules to say how such a dispute would be handled. The article seems to say that Kim Yun-Yeong was originally judged as having won (which I cannot see how that could be if the group in atari had not been captured), but An Kwan-Uk started a dispute after the game was scored that was decided in his favor. If you would clarify this issue, Hajin, it would be greatly appreciated.
I was using Google Translate, so I can't be sure, but the article seems to say that both players missed the atari here. If this is true, it is certainly remarkable, and I don't know enough about the Korean rules to say how such a dispute would be handled. The article seems to say that Kim Yun-Yeong was originally judged as having won (which I cannot see how that could be if the group in atari had not been captured), but An Kwan-Uk started a dispute after the game was scored that was decided in his favor. If you would clarify this issue, Hajin, it would be greatly appreciated.
2010.09.25 13:20:40
Did no one in the studio notice? That seems quite improbable. I was thinking that it could be considered dame, because of an obscure provision in the Ing rules. However, that provision only applies when both sides have stones in atari and a capture by either side would lead to a loss for whoever played first. Seeing as only white was in atari, and black did not capture, I think white should be awarded the point. I don't know if there is a standard way to handle this in any ruleset, and I'm most unclear about the particulars of the official Korean rules. There seems to be little information available on them in the West. Actually I think it could serve as Exhibit A in the argument for stone scoring, since the requirement that all points be filled in for counting makes this problem irrelevant. I feel sorry for the players, this must be very embarrassing for both of them. I noticed in the comments that some even seemed to suggest that Kim Yun-Yeong should be prohibited from competing in the Asian Games because of this. I think that's way too harsh, but of course people are afraid if she made such an error once it could happen again, however unlikely. Unfortunately, she'll probably be under terrible pressure in international competitions for awhile. Anyway, I noticed the article so fast because I like to try to practice reading on Tygem and Cyberoro in the morning. I'm studying Korean, and I can read 한글, but don't know enough words to understand much yet. Actually I thought your response was quite prompt, seeing as Korea is thirteen hours difference from me in the eastern US. 감사합니다, 이 선생님!
2010.09.25 11:10:08
How fluid is the game when it goes from dame into scoring? I don't have much experience in watching pro games. Do they just start scoring immediately? Did white make sure to push stones to hide the atari? This is a very weird situation.
2010.09.28 21:20:54
I agree with KBA judgment. Dura lex sed lex (Latin expression: the law is harsh, but it's the law).
This reminds me one similar case that happened in a lightning tournament in Dublin some years ago. In one match, both players were running out of time, and the game was in the middle phase. One of them, having just a couple of seconds left, decided to pass (to avoid losing on time), and the other one played a few moves and finally decided to pass too. Both claimed the win, despite most of the territories were not closed yet. The referee decided to let them continue the game, giving them extra time. But in my opinion this was a mistake. Because the rule says "when a player pass, this means he can't make more territory", so "all empty points that are not totally surrounded by one color stones (of living groups) are considered dames". That is, only completely surrounded intersections will count as points.
This reminds me one similar case that happened in a lightning tournament in Dublin some years ago. In one match, both players were running out of time, and the game was in the middle phase. One of them, having just a couple of seconds left, decided to pass (to avoid losing on time), and the other one played a few moves and finally decided to pass too. Both claimed the win, despite most of the territories were not closed yet. The referee decided to let them continue the game, giving them extra time. But in my opinion this was a mistake. Because the rule says "when a player pass, this means he can't make more territory", so "all empty points that are not totally surrounded by one color stones (of living groups) are considered dames". That is, only completely surrounded intersections will count as points.
Wow! You were so fast, haha. That happened only yesterday.
Anyway, yea, it's quite controversial in Korean baduk community right now. Hundreds of people are leaving comments on that.
According to the article, what has happened is this; The game was played on Baduk TV studio on live. At last black won by a half point on the board. The commentator was saying black won for sure, and everyone who were watching this game thought so, too. Players finished this game quickly, and counted the score. Surprisingly, however, white won by a half point. Black player, Kim Yoon-Young 1P, left the studio immediately. After that, so many viewers phoned the studio to confirm the result. Eventually the staff of Baduk TV asked both players to come again, and checked out the recorded video. And they found out that white didn't fill one point where he should have (It seems as if both players didn't see the atari of a huge white group). That was where the game got reversed. Then the problem arose. Can un-filled false eye be a point? Is letting white win this game just? Korean Baduk Association called an emergent rule-meeting. Their judgment was, "White has won the game, because black accepted her defeat and left the place." Yet, many people are still questioning the judgment. What do you think? What is your opinion??